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Rodger Tutt
 IP: 69.158.51.127 Feb 4, 08 - 7:37 AM |
So much for the false doctrine of "limited atonement"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/everyknee.htm what this means copy and paste the url into the address bar |
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Gary Anderson
IP: 71.94.30.184 Aug 9th, 2008 - 8:55 AM |
Re: So much for the false doctrine of "limited atonement"
Jesus laid down His life for the Sheep. The pharisees did not believe because they were not of his sheep. Notice the cause of not believing was that they were not sheep. Yet he had other sheep from a different fold, the Gentile elect, who had not yet been saved. This cause and effect is absolute proof of limited atonement Roger. |
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rodgertutt@sympatico.ca
IP: 76.67.102.19 Aug 9th, 2008 - 9:08 AM |
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the second death
The salvation of the sheep (the firstfruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace) will be completed after the first resurrection. The salvation of the non-elect will occur after the great white throne judgement. SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood. http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love. It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire. But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death. You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?" There actually is much evidence. Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John. Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24) Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25). Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers. So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished? They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22). They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous: Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20) All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10) All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11). And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so. So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people. In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death. The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul. How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty. In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force. In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation. He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25). He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24). He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28). So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all. Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most. Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time. Each in his own order. http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm |
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rodgertutt@sympatico.ca
IP: 76.67.102.19 Aug 9th, 2008 - 11:38 AM |
THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE
“FOREVER AND EVER” Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all. 1Cor. 15:28 All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective). ALL of them refer to a limited period of time. For aionion, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn't. Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all. See http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml AIÓN – AIÓNIOS copy and paste it into Google "THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural) There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle. While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26). According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html Copy and paste tentmaker books chapter eleven into Google It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose. http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html Copy and paste Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal” into Google The argument about “eternal hell” always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is always a stalemate. If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that. But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like. rodgertutt |
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