Ray 1st let me say thanks for this wonderful site. Incredible info here and, having not much prior car knowledge, i've learned so much from your articles & am using it as i currently search for a used car.

-My situation (all prices Canadian):

Shopping for a used car of best overall value possible, don't want to spend over $10,000 (rather spend $3000 lol). I'm looking at a licensed dealer certified-used 2004 Toyota Echo 4door sedan, 86,000km (approx. 53,000 miles), automatic w/ A/C & brand-new set of tires, dealer asking price is $8980 CND. Car isn't listed on the internet by the dealer by here's the dealer's website: www.kanatatoyota.com

According to Autotrader.ca (i live in Ottawa) the price is fairly competitive with other dealers (i think). I just don't know what this car is REALLY worth. I'm going to use your advice and walk-out if i dont get my price, but and i don't know WHAT price i should offer when i negotiate. What would you suggest?

Other questions:

1. car seems in good shape after test-drive and it is certified, but should i still bring it to a independent mechanic before sale?

2. Salesman let me look at his CarFax report on the car and everything was fine. However a red flag was that there were 3 previous owners on the car (orig. owner 2003-2005, 2nd was 2005-2006, 3rd was 2006-2009 then traded in). Should i be worried about this?

3. Since i did see the dealer's CarFax report, do i need to spend the $25 and do an Autocheck for myself?

4. Re: negotiations. Should my 1st offer to the dealer be my final offer, & walk-out if they don't match it?

5. I just want a car for the least price possible at the best VALUE for the money. Asthetics aren't that important to me. I most care about fuel economy, reliability, & just VALUE! After research i see that Honda and Toyota are most reliable & the Echo is cheapest/most reliable car i can find for the $$$. I'd rather spend $4000 on a car then $9000, but its very hard to find reliability info on cars other than the fact that Toyota/Honda are best, so is there any sites to find reliability ratings for all different makes/models? I can only find ConsumerReports site but i need to pay, would it be worth the price? ($5)

Also, do u think i'm making a good choice with the Echo (its more than i want to spend, but has high resale value & good rep.)?

*Sorry for the long post, but i'm trying to get all the facts before i buy. Thanks!

87% visiting my website are from the US, but I happen to be in Oakville home base for the summer and FL for most of the winter, so I know the Ontario market like the back of my hand, here are a few answers to your questions.

(1) Carfax is US base and not reliable for the Canadian market, most Canadian dealers now go with Car Proof a Canadian based company " let's not worry about that for the moment " but remember it for future reference.

(2) Buying an Echo with 86,000 Km " fair Km for the year " but at even $8000. that's going on six years old with three previous owners is not my choice. Don't shop label.

(3) The Ford Focus is every bit as good, and in my mind better value for your bucks " example's " you can buy an 05 - 06 lease return from a Ford dealer for under $10,000 with 50 to 60K only having had one ownership " not three " and subject to in service date most still have a Mfg warranty up to 100K. But the key here is, you only buy from a Ford dealer as they have first choice in selection.

As for Consumers Reports, comparing the Echo to the Focus , don't waste your money, I've just given you the info for free, lol

Thx for answer my questions! :)

Ford Focus looks interesting. I looked up Ottawa Ford dealers but i only found a couple 2005-06+ Focus' that were under $10k & under 60-65km. From some research the Focus seems to be only average or above-average reliable & has much poorer fuel economy (22mpg city/28 mpg HW) than ie: Echo or Civic. Only reason i like the Echo is the great reliability rep & fuel MPG.

Are there any other non-Honda/Toyota small cars w/ great reliability under $9-10k you'd recommend?

Let's get to the core of your question, you speak from reports, I speak from being in the field. " have you driven a Focus " my guess is no... As for gas consumption and stats another $8. a month, if that's the case, will that become a major factor ?

My only other choice in your category is the suzuki Swift that I put on a level with any Japanese car in it's class.
I mentioned on my website, buy a pair of designer jeans and you pay for the label, and yet you can buy the same cloth for much less " that's Focus and Swift "...

Don't get me wrong here, Toyota and Honda are excellent products, but in my mind the consumer is brain washed with labels and will pay the price.

The suzuki Swift in the 90's were every bit as good as any Honda Civic, but bad marketing, and never gained the exposure " why " $$$$$$.

The Focus had minor problems 01 - 02, but after that, It's the best value for bucks in today's market

But the final choice comes down to what feels right for you after a test drive, don't let the Internet sway you with close little picky points.

Thanks for the honest answer Ray. I saw a Swift on the road today & it caught my eye. I'm not a brand-name guy, but i do believe in statistics, and the Echo & Civic etc. just seem to always be near the top of the reliability history lists.

Also, do u know a site where i can find accurate info on fuel economy for cars. Found this gov site, is it accurate?: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml