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Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition

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 Dr. Getty 

 



Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition
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Re: withholding teff hay from fat [IR?] horse

Greetings BB and Happy New Year!

Thank you for writing and it is wonderful to hear that you are working on feeding your horse like a horse. Not a cow. Not a dog. A Horse. Horses (and other equines such as donkey's, ponies, minis, and zebras) are different than just about any other creature on this planet and all it takes to understand this is to read about a horse's physiology. Unfortunately, most barn managers go with "what has always been done" and when asked to explain the difference between a horse's digestive system and that of a cow's, the shoulder's shrug. It's not that they don't care; they do. But many, way too many, are just not aware of how horse's are made and therefore, how they must be fed.

I've answered your questions below:

1] is it possible that the decrease in forage/hay was "starving him fat" and inducing IR ? Can insulin levels be normal [17.3ulU/mL] and still be IR ?

** Restricting forage (hay and/or pasture) causes cortisol (stress hormone to be released). Elevated cortisol leads to increased blood insulin, which leads to fat storage. Bottom line -- stress (forage restriction) prevents fat from being burned. And it causes insulin resistance because blood levels of this hormone remain consistently elevated. Eventually, insulin levels will return to normal, so depending on when blood is drawn, the insulin level can be within normal range and the horse still be IR.

2] can you direct me to any vet/nutrition reserch/journal articles that I can show to my vet [and boarding stable] to hopefully institute a better feeding system? I am paying the stable extra for teff hay [alfalfa is the norm] but he is receiving less of it. Buying additional is not cheap in S.Ca [$15/bale]!

** As I mentioned earlier -- any equine physiology text, or my new equine nutrition book, will explain in detail how to feed a horse in tune with his anatomy.

Alfalfa, by the way, is fine to feed, but no more than 50% of the total hay ration.

3] My boy has severe polyuria [1-2x/h], altho' I RARELY notice him drinking. [Vet thought he might be "water cribbing"] Any comments on UA below?
URINALYSIS
Specific Grav = 1.012 [LOW on RR=1.02-1.05].
Ca Carb crystals[HPF]= 4+ [what is normal?]
Serum creatinine = 1.1mg/dL [LOW-RR=1.2-2.0].
My vet said all of this was normal. However, from the research I have done, the SG is in a very low range [isosthenuric?] and may indicate problems w/concentrating urine. Any comments very appreciated! Planning to haul him to a vet hospital about 1 hour away, but a bit concerned about travel stress altering test results.

** There is often no reason for alarm as long as the test values are within normal range, or slightly outside of range. However, retesting is important in these cases -- which I suggest you do -- to see if the results have shifted. Since your horse does appear to have a diluted urine, I recommend that you have his ACTH level tested later this month or in February, as the days lengthen (shorter days cause false ACTH positives). If his ACTH level is truly high, he may be pre-cushiongoid, which will account for his excessive water drinking. However, renal failure can lead to the inability of the kidneys to concentrate the urine, so also have his BUN level tested. Cushing's can lead to renal failure.

Keep me posted!

All the best,

Dr. Getty

BB
Dr. Getty,

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for the info below on feeding hay to a fat horse!! I have studied Eq Nutrition @ Cal Poly Pomona and read ALOT online since I am suspecting my 20+ yo TWH has some metabolic issues [no confirmed dx yet]. Insulin, glucose, tT4 all normal. No ACTH yet due to seasonal shift. Have him on Thyro-L [for weight] and Evitex. In "large" pen [by S CA standards--about 24' x 48'] w/1 other. Exercised daily for at least one hour. He is overweight--about a 7 BCS. Floppy crest,fatty sheath,good winter coat [sheds normally], no lameness. Alot of energy.
The boarding stable has been cutting back on his teff hay as he's gained weight. They feed by "flakes", not weight. He gets 1 flake of teff 2x/d which amounts to max of 6-7lbs/d and about 1/2 flake of alfalfa. He bolts through his hay in about 45 mins. and has nothing for the remaining 22 hours of the day. NO pasture here in S.CA. He is what I can only describe as "crazy ravenous". NO grain. A tiny bit of Integrity lite/no molasses [beet pulp based] as a carrier for supps {Grand Complete, Ramard joint, Ramard Calm & Focus [w/magnesium, thiamin, niacin, B12 and Ramisol that is supposed to decrease cortisol], iodized salt, galic, vinegar]. No treats aside from roasted peanuts in the shell, which he hasn't decided if he likes yet ;-/
I recently bought my own teff hay and have been feeding it liberally so that they always have something in front of them. His behavior changed w/i 2 days of doing this [as you mention below]. He is calmer and seems less interested in eating.

My questions:
1] is it possible that the decrease in forage/hay was "starving him fat" and inducing IR ? Can insulin levels be normal [17.3ulU/mL] and still be IR ?
2] can you direct me to any vet/nutrition reserch/journal articles that I can show to my vet [and boarding stable] to hopefully institute a better feeding system? I am paying the stable extra for teff hay [alfalfa is the norm] but he is receiving less of it. Buying additional is not cheap in S.Ca [$15/bale]!
3] My boy has severe polyuria [1-2x/h], altho' I RARELY notice him drinking. [Vet thought he might be "water cribbing"] Any comments on UA below?
URINALYSIS
Specific Grav = 1.012 [LOW on RR=1.02-1.05].
Ca Carb crystals[HPF]= 4+ [what is normal?]
Serum creatinine = 1.1mg/dL [LOW-RR=1.2-2.0].
My vet said all of this was normal. However, from the research I have done, the SG is in a very low range [isosthenuric?] and may indicate problems w/concentrating urine. Any comments very appreciated! Planning to haul him to a vet hospital about 1 hour away, but a bit concerned about travel stress altering test results.

Again, THANK YOU so much for your forum! I had learned that restricting [low starch grass] hay was NOT the way to lose weight [eliminating grain and increasing exercise are #1, correct?]. Had not seen a clear explanation of fat/IR/feeding sress/cortisol correlation before.

I look forward to reading your book!
BB

Dr. Getty
Hello Lilly,

All overweight horses are insulin resistant since excess fat reduces the number of insulin receptors on the cell surface, making them less responsive to insulin. The result is more insulin, and hence, more fat storage.

I have a few suggestions for you:

First, do not reduce her hay intake. You are making her more fat by doing this. Ironically, when you take away hay, she becomes stressed. And, stress causes the release of the stress hormone, cortisol, which increases insulin resistance, making her store more fat. Give her hay -- all she wants -- and at first she will eat too much. But, after a week or so, she will relax and see that she can walk away, rest, and the hay is still there. This will calm down her stress level and she will self-regulate her intake.

Second, do not feed any sweet feed -- even a small amount is like poison to an overweight horse. And, it makes it very difficult for her to lose fat. Give her a low starch feed, such as Triple Crown Low Starch, as a carrier for supplements.

Third, give her a magnesium/chromium supplement called Quiessence. She needs 5,000 mg of magnesium for 250 lbs of body weight. So, if she weighs 1000 lbs, give her 4 ounces (each ounce provides 5,000 mg of magnesium) per day until you see her lose her fat pads. Then, go down to 1/2 the dosage each day as a maintenace dose. Most horses do not get enough magnesium and borderline deficiencies can result in fat storage.

Exercise is wonderful -- be sure she's getting the nutrients she needs to support her increased activity. A complete vitamin/mineral supplement such as Glanzen-Lite Complete would be advisable.

All the best,

Dr. Getty

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: When is it IR versus just plain fat?!

Hi Dr. Getty!

Thank you for the reply and I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. Summer has a way of going by at warp speed.

I will call the feed store to see if I can find the Triple Crown and the Quiessence is on order!

Lilly has also started cart training...my vet said it's great work for the stifles (another long standing issue with her) and it will make her move and WORK!

The hay I have is an alfalfa/grass mix...and probably more alfalfa. Is this OK for free choice? Her pasture mate is an 18 year old ex-harness racer who would certainly do well with free choice, so no concerns there. I just want to double check because of the alfalfa. I'd hate to switch hay suppliers...I spent two years getting moldy yucky hay until I finally found this lady 1 year ago. Her hay is consistantly good, no mold and no waste!

I'm excited to have a starting place and Lilly and I both appreciate it! Hopefully in a month I can write back and tell you how fabulous she looks!

Where are you from? Wisconsin

How did you locate this forum? google

Re: When is it IR versus just plain fat?!

Hi Lilly's Mom,

As long as the hay does not contain more than half alfalfa, you're ok to feed free choice. More than 50% alfalfa can be problematic because it can lead to enteroliths, and the excess protein can be hard on the liver and kidneys.

Have your hay analyzed for its starch and sugar content to make certain that it is not too high for an insulin resistant horse. You can contact your local county extension service for this or contact Equi-Analtyical Labs for assistance.

If you need help with evaluating your results, feel free to set up a personal phone consultation.


All the best,

Dr. Getty

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: When is it IR versus just plain fat?!

Hi Dr. Getty,

Just wanted to give you a quick update:

The Quiessence arrived (thank you very much!) and Lilly got her first dose that night. After about 4 days, I've already noticed her muscles are much more relaxed. The only way I can explain it is that touching her before was like touching a blown up balloon..very taunt/tight...today I touched her and she's flabby and soft... I have no idea if the Quiessence works that fast, but it's a huge difference! She's still her flightly, silly self though...she's been that way her whole life, so I don't expect much change there, LOL!

I have her switching to the Triple Crown Low starch...should be completely off the sweet feed by next week...AND I'm getting the hay tested soon (have to find a core puncher...I had no idea)

My friend with the IR horse is still worried about keeping her on alfalfa mix hay...she's convinced Lilly will founder by winter. The hay analysis will answer all those questions. I think I would like to do a phone consult when I have those results.

Here's the chubby monkey, I'll try to post after pictures soon!


If that doesn't work, here's the link:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/booger.jpg


Thank you again! I'll keep you posted!!

Where are you from? Wisconsin

Re: When is it IR versus just plain fat?!

Hi Lilly's Mom!

Fabulous news! Yes, Quiessence can work very quickly in making positive behavioral and muscular changes when a horse has a borderline deficiency. So, magnesium was definitely the issue with your horse since it worked so quickly.

Thanks for the picture -- what a sweetie -- a beautiful gal!

You really don't need a core puncher for the hay analysis. Just take small amounts from various sections of the hay bale.

Enjoyed the update!

Dr. Getty

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO