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Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition

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Here you will find more than 6 years of questions and my answers. It is searchable and offers a great deal of information. 

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 Dr. Getty 

 



Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition
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Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hello Alice,

Thank you for writing about this very important issue.

First, let me stress that in order for a horse to self-regulate her intake, she must never run out of hay -- not even for a few minutes. She should have left over in the morning. If she runs out, she will never get the message that there is an unlimited supply and her instincts will not kick in. She will just continue to eat more and more, the more you give her. You may already be giving her an unlimited supply, but I thought I'd mention this since it is a key factor in this process.

The new hay net that you purchased sounds like a good plan -- you say that she has slowed down her eating considerably. As long as it is not causing her frustration, it is a good thing to do. If it is causing frustration, you'll need to get her to slowly accept it.

In the vast majority of cases, horses start to eat less each day and by the end of a week, they are down to eating only what they need to maintain condition. I have encountered a few tough cases that take a couple of months but even those eventually self-regulate.

I highly recommend that you give her Quiessence -- the magnesium and chromium will help lower circulating insulin levels and therefore help her burn fat (when insulin is high, cells hold on to fat and all overweight horses are insulin resistant). Give her 4 scoops per day -- building up to this level over a couple of week's time.

Exercise is also very important since it increases insulin receptors on the cell's surface, allowing for the cells to become less resistant to insulin.

Finally, have your hay analyzed for its sugar and starch content. It is important that she be allowed free-choice hay but it should not be too high in non-structural carbohdyrates. I recommend sending a sample to Equi-Analytical Labs -- www.equi-analytical.com and order the Equi-Tech test. Add the %WSC to %Starch and ideally, they should total less than 12%.

Keep me posted on how she's doing.

All the best,

Dr. Getty [:]
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Alice Lancaster
Dr. Getty I appreciate your web site! I'm wondering about how long it takes most horses to self adjust when you go from 3 meals a day to access all day long? Have you seen any that just can't/won't self regulate?
I have a 14 yo Appendix QH who is the easiest keeper in the world and can eat several pounds of grass hay in a nano second!! And always seems hungry. We don't have pastures here they are in corrals (dry lot and High desert here). I do have a small grass area she gets in for 10 to 20 min. day but it would not support 24/7 turn out.I tried giving her free choice earlier this year and she put on so much weight I became concerned,reduced the grass hay to 10 lbs./day, increased her excercise, and went back to 3 feedings/day, and took her off Glanzen Lite. She also gets 1/4 lb. soaked beet pulp pellets 2xday with one scoop of Farrier's Formula 1/day for her hooves and everything looks good (weight,hooves,coat, energy level,etc)I just bought a "Nibble Net" with 1 1/2 inch holes. It now takes her about 3 hours to eat a 3- 4lbs. of grass hay. I tried the 4 in. holes in another brand but she had all her hay eaten with in an hr. or less. I would like to give her 24/7 access to her hay. We've not had any health problems in the 7-8 years we've owned her...other than she puts weight on very easily. She is 15.3 H and her last weight (tape) was 1079 and is looking pretty good (just a bit soft yet). She was close to 1200 and had a HUGE belly when I cut her back. She has never had a cresty neck. How long should I give her to adjust or should I just give up?
Thank you!

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Alice,

I would also recommend a slow feeder such as the freedom feeder,i have been using them for about 8 months now and love them,i have three horses and they didnt do good with the free feeding with out the nets,i can now load up the nets and they have learned that they can come and go as they please and the hay is always there,i put in a normal days amount and it takes them 24 hrs to finish and some times they still have hay left over.They also prefer the hay in the nets instead of the hay on the ground.Hope you will try one, you and your horses will love them
I ordered mine from www.forevernaturalequine.com

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Thank you all for your suggestions.

Dr. G she is getting VERY frustrated with the nibble net and has learned to bite and flip it to get bits of hay to drop on the floor (even though she's on rubber mats that's not exactly what I had hoped for.)That works faster than trying to nibble and pull through the holes. You know when she has finished as the banging stops
I can get Quiessence and start her on that. She gets pretty regular excercise and it will increase more as out weather is starting to cool off.
Judy re: the freedom freeder, How does the top stay closed? That may be better to keep her from flipping the net and I could put quite a bit more in it.....to get her through the night without running out.
Thanks again

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Alice,I'm using this type of net:
http://www.heunetzshop.de/Heunetze-aller-Art/Grossraum-Heunetze-knotenlos:::6_13.html (copy and paste!)
These are available in the US too, afaik (don't know the supplier though). You can use another snap or similar to tie it to the wall on the bottom too, then your mare can't flip it anymore. This would work with a regular hanging hay net too. :)
If you google slow feeders you find quite a few websites showing people's inventions and solutions.

Where are you from? Germany

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Judy,

Excellent suggestion and it is delightful to read how well your horses are doing.

All the best,

Dr. Getty

judy
Hi Alice,

I would also recommend a slow feeder such as the freedom feeder,i have been using them for about 8 months now and love them,i have three horses and they didnt do good with the free feeding with out the nets,i can now load up the nets and they have learned that they can come and go as they please and the hay is always there,i put in a normal days amount and it takes them 24 hrs to finish and some times they still have hay left over.They also prefer the hay in the nets instead of the hay on the ground.Hope you will try one, you and your horses will love them
I ordered mine from www.forevernaturalequine.com

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Alice,

Frustrating can backfire on you since it causes stress and that leads to a hormonal response that can induce laminitis. So, I recommend taking it very, very slowly, allowing her to have grass hay free choice, along with it in the net (or whichever slow feeder you choose). I would also contact the manufacturer and talk to them about the problems you're experiencing -- they will likely offer you some suggestions on how to mount it and make it easier for your horse to use.

Please keep me posted.

Best regards,

Dr. Getty

Alice
Thank you all for your suggestions.

Dr. G she is getting VERY frustrated with the nibble net and has learned to bite and flip it to get bits of hay to drop on the floor (even though she's on rubber mats that's not exactly what I had hoped for.)That works faster than trying to nibble and pull through the holes. You know when she has finished as the banging stops
I can get Quiessence and start her on that. She gets pretty regular excercise and it will increase more as out weather is starting to cool off.
Judy re: the freedom freeder, How does the top stay closed? That may be better to keep her from flipping the net and I could put quite a bit more in it.....to get her through the night without running out.
Thanks again

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Thank you, Jennifer for your suggestion. Yes, there are many available -- I recently came accrose this one that is very nice -- www.work4feeder.com

All the best,

Dr. Getty

Jennifer
Alice,I'm using this type of net:
http://www.heunetzshop.de/Heunetze-aller-Art/Grossraum-Heunetze-knotenlos:::6_13.html (copy and paste!)
These are available in the US too, afaik (don't know the supplier though). You can use another snap or similar to tie it to the wall on the bottom too, then your mare can't flip it anymore. This would work with a regular hanging hay net too.
If you google slow feeders you find quite a few websites showing people's inventions and solutions.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Dr.Getty. My mare is at 2 scoops of Quiessence per day and will increase by one scoop/wk. I have changed her back to the feeder with 4" holes as she really did get progressivly upset with the 1 1/2" holes.She's fed 3 times per day. I will try the small holes again after she has been on 4 scoops of Quiessence for awhile. If that still doesn't work I will look at other models after the holidays....So all suggestions are appreciated.
Our dealer gets hay from different areas and states each time so I was hesitant to have it tested each time. I do want to get her to a 24/7 schedule and it may end up trial and error with different feeder nets.
Her weight appears good at present (haven't taped her) but she has not had a cresty neck nor any indications of laminitis thus far, Thank Goodness. It is a work in progress for sure!!!
Thanks again for all the suggestions and information.

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hello Alice,

I have recently come across this feeder (don't know if I recommended it to you) -- it's called Work 4 Feeder: www.work4feeder.htm

It is not a net, but a feeding mechanism that slows down the rate of hay consumption and when I spoke to the owner, he claims that it does not cause the frustration that hay nets can cause. I recommend contacting him -- His name is Rick Huffman and his contact information is on the bottom of the webpage.

Keep me posted,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Alice
Hi Dr.Getty. My mare is at 2 scoops of Quiessence per day and will increase by one scoop/wk. I have changed her back to the feeder with 4" holes as she really did get progressivly upset with the 1 1/2" holes.She's fed 3 times per day. I will try the small holes again after she has been on 4 scoops of Quiessence for awhile. If that still doesn't work I will look at other models after the holidays....So all suggestions are appreciated.
Our dealer gets hay from different areas and states each time so I was hesitant to have it tested each time. I do want to get her to a 24/7 schedule and it may end up trial and error with different feeder nets.
Her weight appears good at present (haven't taped her) but she has not had a cresty neck nor any indications of laminitis thus far, Thank Goodness. It is a work in progress for sure!!!
Thanks again for all the suggestions and information.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Dr. Getty,
rereading this today made me come up with a question. Here is a quote from the very first post from Alice:

"She was close to 1200 and had a HUGE belly when I cut her back. She has never had a cresty neck. How long should I give her to adjust or should I just give up?"

Can it be that the mare had not gotten fat at all, but had just gotten a hay belly?
In my experience many people confuse horse with a hay belly with a fat horse.

Where are you from? Germany

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you for your patience during this holiday season.

You are absolutely correct about a hay belly. Many folks mistake this as fat when in fact, it is not fat, but gas! Horses typically put on body fat in places other than the underside of the belly. Consumption of hay results in gas, which is normal and actually healthy. Too much gas, however, can be an indication of poor quality hay, mold, worm infestation, etc. (which is a topic for another day).

The mare was 1200 lbs, which may or may not be overweight for that particular horse. But even normal weight horses can have fat deposits along the neck, back, shoulders, etc., which would be an indication of insulin resistance. So, weight, in and of itself, is not the only indicator.

And bottom line... a hay belly is not an indicator of body fat.

Thank you for bringing this up!

Happy New Year,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse


Jennifer
Dr. Getty,
rereading this today made me come up with a question. Here is a quote from the very first post from Alice:

"She was close to 1200 and had a HUGE belly when I cut her back. She has never had a cresty neck. How long should I give her to adjust or should I just give up?"

Can it be that the mare had not gotten fat at all, but had just gotten a hay belly?
In my experience many people confuse horse with a hay belly with a fat horse.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Wishing you a very Happy New Year too!

Where are you from? Germany

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Thank you!

Jennifer
Wishing you a very Happy New Year too!

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

UPDATE:

Yesterday I stuffed a haynet I had used in a former trailer. I then used another net (doulbled netted) over that to make the holes just a little smaller. I suppose it held about 15lbs. of hay and hung it in the corner next to her regular feeder. I continued to give the am, noon, and pm feeds in her regular feeder and had to refill the haynet before going to bed. I don't think she stopped eating all day yesterday!!! but today she is actually sunning herself and taking long breaks from the hay!!! Yipee

My question now Dr. Getty is how long is it safe to continue the 4 scoops of Quiessence a day?

Jennifer I think you made a good point about the haybelly but I do think she was over weight as well. I will have to keep and eye and increase excercise or digestive aids as needed.

I'm thinking she is a real EASY keeper as my 25 yr. T.B and 11 yr. APHA mare do ok on this hay with no problems. They are all wormed on a regular basis and the hay I get is fresh smelling, good color etc. But at least for now... I think your advise, Dr, G, of never letting her run out of hay and the Quiessence seems to have worked!

Where are you from? Nevada

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Greetings Alice,

How wonderful!! Congratulations! It takes patience and you are to be commended.

I am going to create a document of testimonials about self-regulating and horse owners' experiences. I'd like to include yours, if I have your permission.

About Quiessence... once you start to see her losing fat deposits along the crest of her neck, along her spine, shoulders, tail head, etc., you can start to reduce the amount you feed. You'll want to always give her some magnesium -- 1 to 2 scoops daily, but you can start decreasing it from 4 scoops, down to 3, once you are visually recognizing results. Keep a vigilant eye for any return of fat deposits and increase the Quiessence, if necessary.

Best wishes,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse



Alice
UPDATE:

Yesterday I stuffed a haynet I had used in a former trailer. I then used another net (doulbled netted) over that to make the holes just a little smaller. I suppose it held about 15lbs. of hay and hung it in the corner next to her regular feeder. I continued to give the am, noon, and pm feeds in her regular feeder and had to refill the haynet before going to bed. I don't think she stopped eating all day yesterday!!! but today she is actually sunning herself and taking long breaks from the hay!!! Yipee

My question now Dr. Getty is how long is it safe to continue the 4 scoops of Quiessence a day?

Jennifer I think you made a good point about the haybelly but I do think she was over weight as well. I will have to keep and eye and increase excercise or digestive aids as needed.

I'm thinking she is a real EASY keeper as my 25 yr. T.B and 11 yr. APHA mare do ok on this hay with no problems. They are all wormed on a regular basis and the hay I get is fresh smelling, good color etc. But at least for now... I think your advise, Dr, G, of never letting her run out of hay and the Quiessence seems to have worked!

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Yes, I hope my experience will help others so you are welcome to use it. I am going to get my other two horses on a 24/7 feed as well.....I love the idea I'll be able increase riding time simply because I'm not preparing and giving 3 meals per day to three horses! Stuffing a big net once a day will be a real time saver. Plus, I won't be waiting for them to finish a meal or get a good start if I want to go for a ride or something. They should always be pretty satisfied... hay wise. Libby seems so much calmer and less food frantic by far. By the way, I cut the holes larger on the first net I orderd and she's eating from it fine. The holes were 1.5" square. Now they are 1.5 x 3 inches. Can't wait to see how my more high strung mare will do.
Thanks again Dr Getty and everyone for all their suggestions!

Where are you from? Nevada

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hello Alice,

Yes, I hope so as well -- many folks are concerned that their horses will get too fat or colic with free-choice hay, when in fact, it does the opposite. Horses lose weight because they are no longer producing stress hormones (which cause the body to stay fat). And, colic risk is reduced because an empty stomach causes colic, not the other way around.

And the extra benefit is that you end up with a horse who feels better and therefore, behaves better.

It's a win-win all around!

Thank you!

Dr. Getty [:]
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Alice
Yes, I hope my experience will help others so you are welcome to use it. I am going to get my other two horses on a 24/7 feed as well.....I love the idea I'll be able increase riding time simply because I'm not preparing and giving 3 meals per day to three horses! Stuffing a big net once a day will be a real time saver. Plus, I won't be waiting for them to finish a meal or get a good start if I want to go for a ride or something. They should always be pretty satisfied... hay wise. Libby seems so much calmer and less food frantic by far. By the way, I cut the holes larger on the first net I orderd and she's eating from it fine. The holes were 1.5" square. Now they are 1.5 x 3 inches. Can't wait to see how my more high strung mare will do.
Thanks again Dr Getty and everyone for all their suggestions!

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Judy I wanted to thank you as I got a "Freedom Net" for Libby and it is working great. The nice thing about is that it holds enough for a full 24-30 hours. It really cuts down on trips to the barn. As this mare is such an aggressive eater I am glad I went through 3 other nets with progressivly smaller holes. Had I went with the Freedom Net at first....I think she would have had fits! I'm going to get one for my other two but they should be easy to transition over as they are not the pigs that Libby is Thanks again!

Where are you from? Nevada

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

ALICE

You are welcome! I have loved my Freedom Feeders so much i have become a distributor.

Thank you Dr Getty for helping people understand how inportant it is to free feed horses.

Where are you from? calif

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Alice,

As with any slow feeding system, it is important to gradually allow the horse to become adjusted to it. If introduced all at once, it can cause frustration, which can defeat the purpose (leads to cortisol release, which leads to fat storage). So you are to be commended for taking your time with this.

Best regards,

Dr. Getty


Alice
Judy I wanted to thank you as I got a "Freedom Net" for Libby and it is working great. The nice thing about is that it holds enough for a full 24-30 hours. It really cuts down on trips to the barn. As this mare is such an aggressive eater I am glad I went through 3 other nets with progressivly smaller holes. Had I went with the Freedom Net at first....I think she would have had fits! I'm going to get one for my other two but they should be easy to transition over as they are not the pigs that Libby is Thanks again!

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Judy,

Fabulous! I have heard many good things about your product.

Dr. Getty

judy
ALICE

You are welcome! I have loved my Freedom Feeders so much i have become a distributor.

Thank you Dr Getty for helping people understand how inportant it is to free feed horses.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

I use three very large hay nets made of cargo netting (each can hold a bale) with holes about 1.5 inches big. My three LOVE them. I am also going to get some smaller ones to use around the track, just to keep them from camping at the larger nets. I LOVE my hay nets and thoroughly recommend them. However, Dr. Getty is right - they should never be empty. Occasionally one of mine will have hay in it they like better and that net will be eaten all up, but the other two will still have hay in them. I have done 24/7 hay since I have owned horses (3 yrs now) and they are so calm and relaxed (except when they choose to play). I waste less hay (doesn't blow away or get stepped all over) Also, I find that the horses maintain their weight, or in the case of my really old guy, actually keep weight ON a little better. I believe when Summit (the old fellow) has to work at eating and s l o w s down, he gets better nutrition and better digestion (same thing). I would never feed my horses any other way now. :o)

Where are you from? New York

How did you locate this forum? Dr. Getty told me.

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

YES!!!I know what you mean about them being calmer. I feel guilty I had not thought of this before....especially since we do not have big pastures here (like when I was growing up in the Midwest)and the horses are kept in a dry corral. For the good of the horses, I hope this method really catches on.

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

My guys also live on a Paddock Paradise (track) system. I have found that this really improves how much they move around. It can be built on very small or really large areas and either way helps the horses to move a whole lot more. Check this web site out for more info...http://successful-natural-horsecare.com/natural-living/paddock-paradise-grazing/

Where are you from? New York

How did you locate this forum? Dr. Getty told me.

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Jane and Alice,

It is so wonderful to have you both discuss the benefits of allowing horses to simply be horses -- they are innately designed to graze all of the time. Everyone has a different set up so it takes some creativity and the Paddock Paradise is an excellent choice. It allows for movement in a relatively small space.

Thank you and keep spreading the concept to others. It is really not at all new -- it's the way horses have lived for millions of years.

All the best,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Jane Ames
My guys also live on a Paddock Paradise (track) system. I have found that this really improves how much they move around. It can be built on very small or really large areas and either way helps the horses to move a whole lot more. Check this web site out for more info...http://successful-natural-horsecare.com/natural-living/paddock-paradise-grazing/

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

I use the Nibble Net for my two very easy-keeper Peruvian Horses, and I love it. I use them in my horses' stalls, and in their sandlot turnouts. I have 4 of the Standard size, with 1.5 inch holes, but I found this Standard size to be too small to hold our enormous California hay flakes. The flakes are very big (the bales weigh over 100 lbs.) I can only fit two flakes in the Standard Nibble Net. So, I ordered 4 of the XL with 1.5 inch holes. You might want to purchase the XL size, with larger holes. This way you can fill it with enough hay, so your horse doesn't run out, especially during the night, and he might not become as frustrated with larger holes to pull the hay through.

Once I receive the XL sizes, I will keep the Standard size for use in my trailer, and around my property for them to "graze" on.

Where are you from? Agua Dulce, CA (Southern California)

How did you locate this forum? I bought your book, then went to your site

Re: Feeding free choice and self regulating

Hi Diana,

Thank you for the advice.

I have seen some problems with a loose shoe getting caught in hay nets so I like to recommend a different slow feeder design called Work 4 Feeder -- www.work4feeder.com.

But, as with any slow feeder, it is very important to allow the horse to become comfortable with it. Frustration can cause a hormonal response which actually keeps the horse overweight and could induce laminitis.

All the best,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Diana Reed
I use the Nibble Net for my two very easy-keeper Peruvian Horses, and I love it. I use them in my horses' stalls, and in their sandlot turnouts. I have 4 of the Standard size, with 1.5 inch holes, but I found this Standard size to be too small to hold our enormous California hay flakes. The flakes are very big (the bales weigh over 100 lbs.) I can only fit two flakes in the Standard Nibble Net. So, I ordered 4 of the XL with 1.5 inch holes. You might want to purchase the XL size, with larger holes. This way you can fill it with enough hay, so your horse doesn't run out, especially during the night, and he might not become as frustrated with larger holes to pull the hay through.

Once I receive the XL sizes, I will keep the Standard size for use in my trailer, and around my property for them to "graze" on.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO