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Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition

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Ask the Nutritionist: Dr. Getty's Forum for Equine Nutrition
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Re: How much is free choice?

Thank you so much for advice! We do feed alfalfa cubes to all of them, as an evening meal! Just about 1 kg each!

They also eat a little bit of concentrates - about 1/2 lb of commercial feed (low calorie for the fat ones) and about 1/2 lb of steamed oats+wheat bran for lunch. This is just because all other horses are being fed at this same time, so they don't feel deprived.

I did feed the fat mare some magnesium (for about a month)... can't say there was any difference, but may be the time period was too short.
We have various supplements on the market, mainly from Europe. The ones with magnesium are mostly with vitamins B and aminoacids.

I am thinking about these supplements
http://naf.co.uk/

Namely, this one
http://www.naf-equine.eu/uk//products/productDetail.jsp?detail_id=slimline

Slimline
If your horse is prone to weight gain or he carries too much condition its likely you restrict his diet and grazing. Now, with new Slimline, you no longer have to compromise on his important nutritional needs. Formulated especially for horses and ponies who struggle to keep weight off, Slimline is designed to make up the shortfalls of a restricted diet, and more. NAF recommend that Slimlineis fed as part of a 'calorie controlled diet' combined with a correct management and exercise regime

Ingredients: Seaweed meal, Products of fruits, Oil seeds, Products of tubers and roots, Calcined magnesite, Aromatic and appetising herbs, White mineral oil.

Nutritional analysis: Protein 8.4%
Fat 5.4%
Ash 20.8%
Crude Fibre 18.0%

Contains Sources of: Provitamin A, Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B9, B12, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, Calcium, Chlorine, Potassium, Nitrogen, Sodium, Phosphorous, Sulphur, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Iodine, Magnesium, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, with a broad spectrum of Amino acids, Essential fatty acids and natural Antioxidants



But they also have a few calming supplements with Magnesium

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Actually, I saw 2 kinds of supplements with Magnesium:
1. Magnesium + L-Tryptophan + B vitamins

2. Magnesium (aspartate) + Zinc (organic)

Can't decide which one is better? The horse is not nervous at all, rather sleepy... :)

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? Internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Hi Ekaterina,

Thank you for your patience. I'm pleased to hear that you're providing some alfalfa. The oats, however, should be eliminated -- not even a little bit for an overweight horse is advisable.

And with magnesium... it can take several months before you see results.

So, I recommend continuing with the magnesium. I don't think the additional tryptophan is necessary so I would go with the magnesium and zinc (though zinc truly needs to be balanced with copper and iron).

The seaweed product you mentioned earlier -- It contains magnesium and other vitamins and minerals. So this one may be the best of all of them. How much magnesium does this products contain -- you may have to feed a combination of both of them to get the amount needed.

Keep me posted.

All the best,

Dr. Juliet Getty

Ekaterina
Actually, I saw 2 kinds of supplements with Magnesium:
1. Magnesium + L-Tryptophan + B vitamins

2. Magnesium (aspartate) + Zinc (organic)

Can't decide which one is better? The horse is not nervous at all, rather sleepy...

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: How much is free choice?

Finally got the results of hay and alfalfa granules analyses (I think we still got the same supplier of hay, but the batch that was analysed is finished long ago :))

Hay:

Digestible energy: 7,41 MJ/kg
Sugar: 10,1 g/kg (1,01%)
Starch: 4,55 g/kg (0,455%)
Crude protein: 57,7 g/kg (5,77%)
Digestible protein: 26 g/kg (2,6%)
Calcium: 2,78 g/kg (0,278%)
Phosphorus: 1,36 g/kg (0,136%)
Selenium: 0,0831 mg/kg (ppm)

Alfalfa granules:

Digestible energy: 8,43 MJ/kg
Sugar: 0,73 g/kg (0,073%%)
Starch: 12,61 g/kg (1.261%)
Crude protein: 115,64 g/kg (11,6%)
Digestible protein: 86,22 g/kg (8,6%)
Calcium: 7,75 g/kg (0,78%)
Phosphorus: 2,25 g/kg (0,2%)
Selenium: 0,0396 mg/kg (ppm)

Unfortunately, they don't do magnesium... I started to add magnesuim oxide to my fat horse at about 15 gramms per day (I bought pure MgO because she gets another flax-based supplement which has B-vitamins and other staff). I'll do a blood test in about a month and see how Magnesium level changes there.

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? Internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Hello Ekaterina,

Both hays are low in sugar and starch, so that's a plus. But here we test for Water Soluble Carbohydrates (WSC) which includes both simple sugars and fructans. Fructans are not included in the sugar values you have below, and they can contribute to laminitis.

But, from everything I see, both look fine. The protein level of the alfalfa is actually quite low for alfalfa. So, I would suggest mixing to the two hays together.

Adding the magnesium at 15 grams per day is within reason.

All the best,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Ekaterina
Finally got the results of hay and alfalfa granules analyses (I think we still got the same supplier of hay, but the batch that was analysed is finished long ago

Hay:

Digestible energy: 7,41 MJ/kg
Sugar: 10,1 g/kg (1,01%)
Starch: 4,55 g/kg (0,455%)
Crude protein: 57,7 g/kg (5,77%)
Digestible protein: 26 g/kg (2,6%)
Calcium: 2,78 g/kg (0,278%)
Phosphorus: 1,36 g/kg (0,136%)
Selenium: 0,0831 mg/kg (ppm)

Alfalfa granules:

Digestible energy: 8,43 MJ/kg
Sugar: 0,73 g/kg (0,073%%)
Starch: 12,61 g/kg (1.261%)
Crude protein: 115,64 g/kg (11,6%)
Digestible protein: 86,22 g/kg (8,6%)
Calcium: 7,75 g/kg (0,78%)
Phosphorus: 2,25 g/kg (0,2%)
Selenium: 0,0396 mg/kg (ppm)

Unfortunately, they don't do magnesium... I started to add magnesuim oxide to my fat horse at about 15 gramms per day (I bought pure MgO because she gets another flax-based supplement which has B-vitamins and other staff). I'll do a blood test in about a month and see how Magnesium level changes there.

Where are you from? Bayfield, CO

Re: How much is free choice?

So... 3 months of feeding 15 gramms of magnesium oxide didn't change her much! (although the cinch is a couple holes shorter now )

But my fatty still looks like this


I removed all concentrates - she's only getting hay, alfalfa/straw commercial mixture as her morning and day meals (really small portions, about 1/2 lb each) and about 2 lbs of soaked alfalfa/grass pellets where I add supplements.

Now that they started to graze for about 4-5 hours a day she eats about 7-8 kg of hay/day. She is also excersized for at least 5 days a week, what I'd call "medium work".

I think about adding psyllium to her diet and see if that helps her lose some weight... I read in other posts that you recommend adding 1/3 cups per meal... but provided she has only 1 meal I can add it to - shoul I add 1 cup per day? I'm not sure if I need to leave magnesium - it doesn't seem to have much effect...

I also found this product on our market called LaminTec 5-HT™:
- Suitable for horses and ponies prone to laminitis, those with conditions such as Cushing’s disease or metabolic syndrome or where owners are worried about laminitis risk associated with weight gain and/or periods of high grass growth (spring and autumn). Can be fed all year round.
- Different from other products – backed by published science – includes a unique natural ingredient, ground feverfew herb. No current equine supplement has this ingredient.
- May help to decrease obesity; helpful for the ‘good doer’, fat cob, Shetland, Shire or other types of horse which put on weight easily.
- Feverfew is known to help balance body systems and assist in maintaining healthy circulation.

http://www.pegasusdiagnostics.com/?page_id=19
I'm not really sure if it can do anything for her, but I'm thinking about trying it...

Also... she doesn't eat salt! I started adding 15 gramms of salt to her meal, but she was very disgusted about it and got used to it only in about 2 months! She stops eating if I try to add more (well, she does finish her meal anyway, but over night!). The salt cookies that I bought earlier she refused completely! (fortunately I have other horses who were happy to eat them!)

So I don't really know how to squeeze more salt in her... I feel like I'm torturing her Or can it be that she doesn't need it after all (although she sweats a lot during work out, especially now when it's getting hot!)

Sorry for such a long post... Thank you for your time!!!

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Some more pics


People ask me if she's pregnant :))


but her daughter (to the right) is 3 yo now, and she still looks like she's 11 months pregnant! (Actually, she wasn't that fat before pregnancy - may be this is hormone problem? On the other hand, her brother-gelding looks almost the same...)

She's the last one to leave the hay feeder when the others are already off


Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Hello Ekaterina,

Thank you for the great photos! I laughed at the one where she was still eating and the others had lost interest!

Some of her pregnant look is due to a hay belly, which is not fat, but gas and is not harmful.

You could try the "weight loss" product you mentioned -- doesn't appear to be harmful. And I would continue with the magnesium (does it also contain chromium?) since it can take far more than 3 months to see a difference.

She doesn't appear to have regional fat deposits, but instead, is heavy all over. This puts her at less of a risk of laminitis than if she were experiencing a lot of fat along her neck, shoulders, spine, etc.

She may not be able to graze on fresh pasture as much as she'd like. Will she tolerate a grazing muzzle for two or three hours? It is only a good idea if it does not cause frustration. And make sure she can drink with it (that the hole is big enough).

About the salt... I would have her blood tested to make sure her electrolytes are in balance and that her liver and kidney function is normal. It's always good to get a "snapshot" of what's going on on the inside.

Keep me posted!

All the best,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Ekaterina

Where are you from? Waverly, Ohio

Re: How much is free choice?

Thanks for reply, Dr. Getty!

I'm a little bit relieved that she's not dangerously fat! I tried to measure her neck as you suggested in the Easy keeper teleseminar... it's 95-97 cm depending where I measure - iy's really hard to find the exact middle! And she is about 152 cm high - so it's really on the edge, either a little under or a little over 0.63.

As for grazing - there is really not so much grass :( They've finished it within a few days, so now just wonder around looking for small remainders! Or going back to hay feeders!

I do test her blood about every 6 months. She seems to be on average with Na and Cl. The latest (March) was 137 mmole/l for Na and 100 mmole for Cl. She was a little short on Potassium this time (3.0 mmole/l), but I think it's more of a discrepancy, usually it's about 4. She also withing the average range on all other numbers, including glucose.

except for triglycerides, which are higher than average!! :)

However, she also is having problems with her white nose for the past couple of summers!

No, unfortunately my Magnesium supplement is a pure Magnesium Oxide. I also give her a general vitamin-mineral supplement, but it doesn't comtain Chromium! In fact, I haven't been able to find any supplement with Chromium on our market :(

Where are you from? Moscow, Russia

How did you locate this forum? internet

Re: How much is free choice?

Greetings Ekaterina,

Thank you for your patience. Let me know how she's been doing the past month and perhaps it would be best to go over things in detail through a consultation via email. That way, I can better address the specific blood levels, measurements, etc. to see how we can customize things more than this forum allows me to do.

All the best,

Dr. Getty
Author of Feed Your Horse Like A Horse

Ekaterina
Thanks for reply, Dr. Getty!

I'm a little bit relieved that she's not dangerously fat! I tried to measure her neck as you suggested in the Easy keeper teleseminar... it's 95-97 cm depending where I measure - iy's really hard to find the exact middle! And she is about 152 cm high - so it's really on the edge, either a little under or a little over 0.63.

As for grazing - there is really not so much grass They've finished it within a few days, so now just wonder around looking for small remainders! Or going back to hay feeders!

I do test her blood about every 6 months. She seems to be on average with Na and Cl. The latest (March) was 137 mmole/l for Na and 100 mmole for Cl. She was a little short on Potassium this time (3.0 mmole/l), but I think it's more of a discrepancy, usually it's about 4. She also withing the average range on all other numbers, including glucose.

except for triglycerides, which are higher than average!!

However, she also is having problems with her white nose for the past couple of summers!

No, unfortunately my Magnesium supplement is a pure Magnesium Oxide. I also give her a general vitamin-mineral supplement, but it doesn't comtain Chromium! In fact, I haven't been able to find any supplement with Chromium on our market

Where are you from? Waverly, Ohio